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Story Time: Silver short squeeze

How the Hunt Brothers Cornered the Silver Market and Then Lost it All

TL:DR: yes its long. Grab a beer.


Until his dying day in 2014, Nelson Bunker Hunt, who had once been the world’s wealthiest man, denied that he and his brother plotted to corner the global silver market.
Sure, back in 1980, Bunker, his younger brother Herbert, and other members of the Hunt clan owned roughly two-thirds of all the privately held silver on earth. But the historic stockpiling of bullion hadn’t been a ploy to manipulate the market, they and their sizable legal team would insist in the following years. Instead, it was a strategy to hedge against the voracious inflation of the 1970s—a monumental bet against the U.S. dollar.
Whatever the motive, it was a bet that went historically sour. The debt-fueled boom and bust of the global silver market not only decimated the Hunt fortune, but threatened to take down the U.S. financial system.
The panic of “Silver Thursday” took place over 35 years ago, but it still raises questions about the nature of financial manipulation. While many view the Hunt brothers as members of a long succession of white collar crooks, from Charles Ponzi to Bernie Madoff, others see the endearingly eccentric Texans as the victims of overstepping regulators and vindictive insiders who couldn’t stand the thought of being played by a couple of southern yokels.
In either case, the story of the Hunt brothers just goes to show how difficult it can be to distinguish illegal market manipulation from the old fashioned wheeling and dealing that make our markets work.
The Real-Life Ewings
Whatever their foibles, the Hunts make for an interesting cast of characters. Evidently CBS thought so; the family is rumored to be the basis for the Ewings, the fictional Texas oil dynasty of Dallas fame.
Sitting at the top of the family tree was H.L. Hunt, a man who allegedly purchased his first oil field with poker winnings and made a fortune drilling in east Texas. H.L. was a well-known oddball to boot, and his sons inherited many of their father’s quirks.
For one, there was the stinginess. Despite being the richest man on earth in the 1960s, Bunker Hunt (who went by his middle name), along with his younger brothers Herbert (first name William) and Lamar, cultivated an image as unpretentious good old boys. They drove old Cadillacs, flew coach, and when they eventually went to trial in New York City in 1988, they took the subway. As one Texas editor was quoted in the New York Times, Bunker Hunt was “the kind of guy who orders chicken-fried steak and Jello-O, spills some on his tie, and then goes out and buys all the silver in the world.”
Cheap suits aside, the Hunts were not without their ostentation. At the end of the 1970s, Bunker boasted a stable of over 500 horses and his little brother Lamar owned the Kansas City Chiefs. All six children of H.L.’s first marriage (the patriarch of the Hunt family had fifteen children by three women before he died in 1974) lived on estates befitting the scions of a Texas billionaire. These lifestyles were financed by trusts, but also risky investments in oil, real estate, and a host of commodities including sugar beets, soybeans, and, before long, silver.
The Hunt brothers also inherited their father’s political inclinations. A zealous anti-Communist, Bunker Hunt bankrolled conservative causes and was a prominent member of the John Birch Society, a group whose founder once speculated that Dwight Eisenhower was a “dedicated, conscious agent” of Soviet conspiracy. In November of 1963, Hunt sponsored a particularly ill-timed political campaign, which distributed pamphlets around Dallas condemning President Kennedy for alleged slights against the Constitution on the day that he was assassinated. JFK conspiracy theorists have been obsessed with Hunt ever since.
In fact, it was the Hunt brand of politics that partially explains what led Bunker and Herbert to start buying silver in 1973.
Hard Money
The 1970s were not kind to the U.S. dollar.
Years of wartime spending and unresponsive monetary policy pushed inflation upward throughout the late 1960s and early 1970s. Then, in October of 1973, war broke out in the Middle East and an oil embargo was declared against the United States. Inflation jumped above 10%. It would stay high throughout the decade, peaking in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution at an annual average of 13.5% in 1980.
Over the same period of time, the global monetary system underwent a historic transformation. Since the first Roosevelt administration, the U.S. dollar had been pegged to the value of gold at a predictable rate of $35 per ounce. But in 1971, President Nixon, responding to inflationary pressures, suspended that relationship. For the first time in modern history, the paper dollar did not represent some fixed amount of tangible, precious metal sitting in a vault somewhere.
For conservative commodity traders like the Hunts, who blamed government spending for inflation and held grave reservations about the viability of fiat currency, the perceived stability of precious metal offered a financial safe harbor. It was illegal to trade gold in the early 1970s, so the Hunts turned to the next best thing.
📷
Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics; chart by Priceonomics
As an investment, there was a lot to like about silver. The Hunts were not alone in fleeing to bullion amid all the inflation and geopolitical turbulence, so the price was ticking up. Plus, light-sensitive silver halide is a key component of photographic film. With the growth of the consumer photography market, new production from mines struggled to keep up with demand.
And so, in 1973, Bunker and Herbert bought over 35 million ounces of silver, most of which they flew to Switzerland in specifically designed airplanes guarded by armed Texas ranch hands. According to one source, the Hunt’s purchases were big enough to move the global market.
But silver was not the Hunts' only speculative venture in the 1970s. Nor was it the only one that got them into trouble with regulators.
Soy Before Silver
In 1977, the price of soybeans was rising fast. Trade restrictions on Brazil and growing demand from China made the legume a hot commodity, and both Bunker and Herbert decided to enter the futures market in April of that year.
A future is an agreement to buy or sell some quantity of a commodity at an agreed upon price at a later date. If someone contracts to buy soybeans in the future (they are said to take the “long” position), they will benefit if the price of soybeans rise, since they have locked in the lower price ahead of time. Likewise, if someone contracts to sell (that’s called the “short” position), they benefit if the price falls, since they have locked in the old, higher price.
While futures contracts can be used by soybean farmers and soy milk producers to guard against price swings, most futures are traded by people who wouldn’t necessarily know tofu from cream cheese. As a de facto insurance contract against market volatility, futures can be used to hedge other investments or simply to gamble on prices going up (by going long) or down (by going short).
When the Hunts decided to go long in the soybean futures market, they went very, very long. Between Bunker, Herbert, and the accounts of five of their children, the Hunts collectively purchased the right to buy one-third of the entire autumn soybean harvest of the United States.
To some, it appeared as if the Hunts were attempting to corner the soybean market.
In its simplest version, a corner occurs when someone buys up all (or at least, most) of the available quantity of a commodity. This creates an artificial shortage, which drives up the price, and allows the market manipulator to sell some of his stockpile at a higher profit.
Futures markets introduce some additional complexity to the cornerer’s scheme. Recall that when a trader takes a short position on a contract, he or she is pledging to sell a certain amount of product to the holder of the long position. But if the holder of the long position just so happens to be sitting on all the readily available supply of the commodity under contract, the short seller faces an unenviable choice: go scrounge up some of the very scarce product in order to “make delivery” or just pay the cornerer a hefty premium and nullify the deal entirely.
In this case, the cornerer is actually counting on the shorts to do the latter, says Craig Pirrong, professor of finance at the University of Houston. If too many short sellers find that it actually costs less to deliver the product, the market manipulator will be stuck with warehouses full of inventory. Finance experts refer to selling the all the excess supply after building a corner as “burying the corpse.”
“That is when the price collapses,” explains Pirrong. “But if the number of deliveries isn’t too high, the loss from selling at the low price after the corner is smaller than the profit from selling contracts at the high price.”
📷
The Chicago Board of Trade trading floor. Photo credit: Jeremy Kemp
Even so, when the Commodity Futures Trading Commission found that a single family from Texas had contracted to buy a sizable portion of the 1977 soybean crop, they did not accuse the Hunts of outright market manipulation. Instead, noting that the Hunts had exceeded the 3 million bushel aggregate limit on soybean holdings by about 20 million, the CFTC noted that the Hunt’s “excessive holdings threaten disruption of the market and could cause serious injury to the American public.” The CFTC ordered the Hunts to sell and to pay a penalty of $500,000.
Though the Hunts made tens of millions of dollars on paper while soybean prices skyrocketed, it’s unclear whether they were able to cash out before the regulatory intervention. In any case, the Hunts were none too pleased with the decision.
“Apparently the CFTC is trying to repeal the law of supply and demand,” Bunker complained to the press.
Silver Thursday
Despite the run in with regulators, the Hunts were not dissuaded. Bunker and Herbert had eased up on silver after their initial big buy in 1973, but in the fall of 1979, they were back with a vengeance. By the end of the year, Bunker and Herbert owned 21 million ounces of physical silver each. They had even larger positions in the silver futures market: Bunker was long on 45 million ounces, while Herbert held contracts for 20 million. Their little brother Lamar also had a more “modest” position.
By the new year, with every dollar increase in the price of silver, the Hunts were making $100 million on paper. But unlike most investors, when their profitable futures contracts expired, they took delivery. As in 1973, they arranged to have the metal flown to Switzerland. Intentional or not, this helped create a shortage of the metal for industrial supply.
Naturally, the industrialists were unhappy. From a spot price of around $6 per ounce in early 1979, the price of silver shot up to $50.42 in January of 1980. In the same week, silver futures contracts were trading at $46.80. Film companies like Kodak saw costs go through the roof, while the British film producer, Ilford, was forced to lay off workers. Traditional bullion dealers, caught in a squeeze, cried foul to the commodity exchanges, and the New York jewelry house Tiffany & Co. took out a full page ad in the New York Times slamming the “unconscionable” Hunt brothers. They were right to single out the Hunts; in mid-January, they controlled 69% of all the silver futures contracts on the Commodity Exchange (COMEX) in New York.
📷
Source: New York Times
But as the high prices persisted, new silver began to come out of the woodwork.
“In the U.S., people rifled their dresser drawers and sofa cushions to find dimes and quarters with silver content and had them melted down,” says Pirrong, from the University of Houston. “Silver is a classic part of a bride’s trousseau in India, and when prices got high, women sold silver out of their trousseaus.”
According to a Washington Post article published that March, the D.C. police warned residents of a rash of home burglaries targeting silver.
Unfortunately for the Hunts, all this new supply had a predictable effect. Rather than close out their contracts, short sellers suddenly found it was easier to get their hands on new supplies of silver and deliver.
“The main factor that has caused corners to fail [throughout history] is that the manipulator has underestimated how much will be delivered to him if he succeeds [at] raising the price to artificial levels,” says Pirrong. “Eventually, the Hunts ran out of money to pay for all the silver that was thrown at them.”
In financial terms, the brothers had a large corpse on their hands—and no way to bury it.
This proved to be an especially big problem, because it wasn’t just the Hunt fortune that was on the line. Of the $6.6 billion worth of silver the Hunts held at the top of the market, the brothers had “only” spent a little over $1 billion of their own money. The rest was borrowed from over 20 banks and brokerage houses.
At the same time, COMEX decided to crack down. On January 7, 1980, the exchange’s board of governors announced that it would cap the size of silver futures exposure to 3 million ounces. Those in excess of the cap (say, by the tens of millions) were given until the following month to bring themselves into compliance. But that was too long for the Chicago Board of Trade exchange, which suspended the issue of any new silver futures on January 21. Silver futures traders would only be allowed to square up old contracts.
Predictably, silver prices began to slide. As the various banks and other firms that had backed the Hunt bullion binge began to recognize the tenuousness of their financial position, they issued margin calls, asking the brothers to put up more money as collateral for their debts. The Hunts, unable to sell silver lest they trigger a panic, borrowed even more. By early March, futures contracts had fallen to the mid-$30 range.
Matters finally came to a head on March 25, when one of the Hunts’ largest backers, the Bache Group, asked for $100 million more in collateral. The brothers were out of cash, and Bache was unwilling to accept silver in its place, as it had been doing throughout the month. With the Hunts in default, Bache did the only thing it could to start recouping its losses: it start to unload silver.
On March 27, “Silver Thursday,” the silver futures market dropped by a third to $10.80. Just two months earlier, these contracts had been trading at four times that amount.
The Aftermath
After the oil bust of the early 1980s and a series of lawsuits polished off the remainder of the Hunt brothers’ once historic fortune, the two declared bankruptcy in 1988. Bunker, who had been worth an estimated $16 billion in the 1960s, emerged with under $10 million to his name. That’s not exactly chump change, but it wasn’t enough to maintain his 500-plus stable of horses,.
The Hunts almost dragged their lenders into bankruptcy too—and with them, a sizable chunk of the U.S. financial system. Over twenty financial institutions had extended over a billion dollars in credit to the Hunt brothers. The default and resulting collapse of silver prices blew holes in balance sheets across Wall Street. A privately orchestrated bailout loan from a number of banks allowed the brothers to start paying off their debts and keep their creditors afloat, but the markets and regulators were rattled.
Silver Spot Prices Per Ounce (January, 1979 - June, 1980)
📷
Source: Trading Economics
In the words of then CFTC chief James Stone, the Hunts’ antics had threatened to punch a hole in the “financial fabric of the United States” like nothing had in decades. Writing about the entire episode a year later, Harper’s Magazine described Silver Thursday as “the first great panic since October 1929.”
The trouble was not over for the Hunts. In the following years, the brothers were dragged before Congressional hearings, got into a legal spat with their lenders, and were sued by a Peruvian mineral marketing company, which had suffered big losses in the crash. In 1988, a New York City jury found for the South American firm, levying a penalty of over $130 million against the Hunts and finding that they had deliberately conspired to corner the silver market.
Surprisingly, there is still some disagreement on that point.
Bunker Hunt attributed the whole affair to the political motives of COMEX insiders and regulators. Referring to himself later as “a favorite whipping boy” of an eastern financial establishment riddled with liberals and socialists, Bunker and his brother, Herbert, are still perceived as martyrs by some on the far-right.
“Political and financial insiders repeatedly changed the rules of the game,” wrote the New American. “There is little evidence to support the ‘corner the market’ narrative.”
Though the Hunt brothers clearly amassed a staggering amount of silver and silver derivatives at the end of the 1970s, it is impossible to prove definitively that market manipulation was in their hearts. Maybe, as the Hunts always claimed, they just really believed in the enduring value of silver.
Or maybe, as others have noted, the Hunt brothers had no idea what they were doing. Call it the stupidity defense.
“They’re terribly unsophisticated,” an anonymous associated was quoted as saying of the Hunts in a Chicago Tribune article from 1989. “They make all the mistakes most other people make,” said another.
p.s. credit to Ben Christopher

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STORY OF THE HUNT BROTHERS AND SILVER SHORT LONG READ

Story Time: Silver short squeeze

How the Hunt Brothers Cornered the Silver Market and Then Lost it All

TL:DR: yes its long. Grab a beer.


Until his dying day in 2014, Nelson Bunker Hunt, who had once been the world’s wealthiest man, denied that he and his brother plotted to corner the global silver market.
Sure, back in 1980, Bunker, his younger brother Herbert, and other members of the Hunt clan owned roughly two-thirds of all the privately held silver on earth. But the historic stockpiling of bullion hadn’t been a ploy to manipulate the market, they and their sizable legal team would insist in the following years. Instead, it was a strategy to hedge against the voracious inflation of the 1970s—a monumental bet against the U.S. dollar.
Whatever the motive, it was a bet that went historically sour. The debt-fueled boom and bust of the global silver market not only decimated the Hunt fortune, but threatened to take down the U.S. financial system.
The panic of “Silver Thursday” took place over 35 years ago, but it still raises questions about the nature of financial manipulation. While many view the Hunt brothers as members of a long succession of white collar crooks, from Charles Ponzi to Bernie Madoff, others see the endearingly eccentric Texans as the victims of overstepping regulators and vindictive insiders who couldn’t stand the thought of being played by a couple of southern yokels.
In either case, the story of the Hunt brothers just goes to show how difficult it can be to distinguish illegal market manipulation from the old fashioned wheeling and dealing that make our markets work.
The Real-Life Ewings
Whatever their foibles, the Hunts make for an interesting cast of characters. Evidently CBS thought so; the family is rumored to be the basis for the Ewings, the fictional Texas oil dynasty of Dallas fame.
Sitting at the top of the family tree was H.L. Hunt, a man who allegedly purchased his first oil field with poker winnings and made a fortune drilling in east Texas. H.L. was a well-known oddball to boot, and his sons inherited many of their father’s quirks.
For one, there was the stinginess. Despite being the richest man on earth in the 1960s, Bunker Hunt (who went by his middle name), along with his younger brothers Herbert (first name William) and Lamar, cultivated an image as unpretentious good old boys. They drove old Cadillacs, flew coach, and when they eventually went to trial in New York City in 1988, they took the subway. As one Texas editor was quoted in the New York Times, Bunker Hunt was “the kind of guy who orders chicken-fried steak and Jello-O, spills some on his tie, and then goes out and buys all the silver in the world.”
Cheap suits aside, the Hunts were not without their ostentation. At the end of the 1970s, Bunker boasted a stable of over 500 horses and his little brother Lamar owned the Kansas City Chiefs. All six children of H.L.’s first marriage (the patriarch of the Hunt family had fifteen children by three women before he died in 1974) lived on estates befitting the scions of a Texas billionaire. These lifestyles were financed by trusts, but also risky investments in oil, real estate, and a host of commodities including sugar beets, soybeans, and, before long, silver.
The Hunt brothers also inherited their father’s political inclinations. A zealous anti-Communist, Bunker Hunt bankrolled conservative causes and was a prominent member of the John Birch Society, a group whose founder once speculated that Dwight Eisenhower was a “dedicated, conscious agent” of Soviet conspiracy. In November of 1963, Hunt sponsored a particularly ill-timed political campaign, which distributed pamphlets around Dallas condemning President Kennedy for alleged slights against the Constitution on the day that he was assassinated. JFK conspiracy theorists have been obsessed with Hunt ever since.
In fact, it was the Hunt brand of politics that partially explains what led Bunker and Herbert to start buying silver in 1973.
Hard Money
The 1970s were not kind to the U.S. dollar.
Years of wartime spending and unresponsive monetary policy pushed inflation upward throughout the late 1960s and early 1970s. Then, in October of 1973, war broke out in the Middle East and an oil embargo was declared against the United States. Inflation jumped above 10%. It would stay high throughout the decade, peaking in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution at an annual average of 13.5% in 1980.
Over the same period of time, the global monetary system underwent a historic transformation. Since the first Roosevelt administration, the U.S. dollar had been pegged to the value of gold at a predictable rate of $35 per ounce. But in 1971, President Nixon, responding to inflationary pressures, suspended that relationship. For the first time in modern history, the paper dollar did not represent some fixed amount of tangible, precious metal sitting in a vault somewhere.
For conservative commodity traders like the Hunts, who blamed government spending for inflation and held grave reservations about the viability of fiat currency, the perceived stability of precious metal offered a financial safe harbor. It was illegal to trade gold in the early 1970s, so the Hunts turned to the next best thing.
📷
Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics; chart by Priceonomics
As an investment, there was a lot to like about silver. The Hunts were not alone in fleeing to bullion amid all the inflation and geopolitical turbulence, so the price was ticking up. Plus, light-sensitive silver halide is a key component of photographic film. With the growth of the consumer photography market, new production from mines struggled to keep up with demand.
And so, in 1973, Bunker and Herbert bought over 35 million ounces of silver, most of which they flew to Switzerland in specifically designed airplanes guarded by armed Texas ranch hands. According to one source, the Hunt’s purchases were big enough to move the global market.
But silver was not the Hunts' only speculative venture in the 1970s. Nor was it the only one that got them into trouble with regulators.
Soy Before Silver
In 1977, the price of soybeans was rising fast. Trade restrictions on Brazil and growing demand from China made the legume a hot commodity, and both Bunker and Herbert decided to enter the futures market in April of that year.
A future is an agreement to buy or sell some quantity of a commodity at an agreed upon price at a later date. If someone contracts to buy soybeans in the future (they are said to take the “long” position), they will benefit if the price of soybeans rise, since they have locked in the lower price ahead of time. Likewise, if someone contracts to sell (that’s called the “short” position), they benefit if the price falls, since they have locked in the old, higher price.
While futures contracts can be used by soybean farmers and soy milk producers to guard against price swings, most futures are traded by people who wouldn’t necessarily know tofu from cream cheese. As a de facto insurance contract against market volatility, futures can be used to hedge other investments or simply to gamble on prices going up (by going long) or down (by going short).
When the Hunts decided to go long in the soybean futures market, they went very, very long. Between Bunker, Herbert, and the accounts of five of their children, the Hunts collectively purchased the right to buy one-third of the entire autumn soybean harvest of the United States.
To some, it appeared as if the Hunts were attempting to corner the soybean market.
In its simplest version, a corner occurs when someone buys up all (or at least, most) of the available quantity of a commodity. This creates an artificial shortage, which drives up the price, and allows the market manipulator to sell some of his stockpile at a higher profit.
Futures markets introduce some additional complexity to the cornerer’s scheme. Recall that when a trader takes a short position on a contract, he or she is pledging to sell a certain amount of product to the holder of the long position. But if the holder of the long position just so happens to be sitting on all the readily available supply of the commodity under contract, the short seller faces an unenviable choice: go scrounge up some of the very scarce product in order to “make delivery” or just pay the cornerer a hefty premium and nullify the deal entirely.
In this case, the cornerer is actually counting on the shorts to do the latter, says Craig Pirrong, professor of finance at the University of Houston. If too many short sellers find that it actually costs less to deliver the product, the market manipulator will be stuck with warehouses full of inventory. Finance experts refer to selling the all the excess supply after building a corner as “burying the corpse.”
“That is when the price collapses,” explains Pirrong. “But if the number of deliveries isn’t too high, the loss from selling at the low price after the corner is smaller than the profit from selling contracts at the high price.”
📷
The Chicago Board of Trade trading floor. Photo credit: Jeremy Kemp
Even so, when the Commodity Futures Trading Commission found that a single family from Texas had contracted to buy a sizable portion of the 1977 soybean crop, they did not accuse the Hunts of outright market manipulation. Instead, noting that the Hunts had exceeded the 3 million bushel aggregate limit on soybean holdings by about 20 million, the CFTC noted that the Hunt’s “excessive holdings threaten disruption of the market and could cause serious injury to the American public.” The CFTC ordered the Hunts to sell and to pay a penalty of $500,000.
Though the Hunts made tens of millions of dollars on paper while soybean prices skyrocketed, it’s unclear whether they were able to cash out before the regulatory intervention. In any case, the Hunts were none too pleased with the decision.
“Apparently the CFTC is trying to repeal the law of supply and demand,” Bunker complained to the press.
Silver Thursday
Despite the run in with regulators, the Hunts were not dissuaded. Bunker and Herbert had eased up on silver after their initial big buy in 1973, but in the fall of 1979, they were back with a vengeance. By the end of the year, Bunker and Herbert owned 21 million ounces of physical silver each. They had even larger positions in the silver futures market: Bunker was long on 45 million ounces, while Herbert held contracts for 20 million. Their little brother Lamar also had a more “modest” position.
By the new year, with every dollar increase in the price of silver, the Hunts were making $100 million on paper. But unlike most investors, when their profitable futures contracts expired, they took delivery. As in 1973, they arranged to have the metal flown to Switzerland. Intentional or not, this helped create a shortage of the metal for industrial supply.
Naturally, the industrialists were unhappy. From a spot price of around $6 per ounce in early 1979, the price of silver shot up to $50.42 in January of 1980. In the same week, silver futures contracts were trading at $46.80. Film companies like Kodak saw costs go through the roof, while the British film producer, Ilford, was forced to lay off workers. Traditional bullion dealers, caught in a squeeze, cried foul to the commodity exchanges, and the New York jewelry house Tiffany & Co. took out a full page ad in the New York Times slamming the “unconscionable” Hunt brothers. They were right to single out the Hunts; in mid-January, they controlled 69% of all the silver futures contracts on the Commodity Exchange (COMEX) in New York.
📷
Source: New York Times
But as the high prices persisted, new silver began to come out of the woodwork.
“In the U.S., people rifled their dresser drawers and sofa cushions to find dimes and quarters with silver content and had them melted down,” says Pirrong, from the University of Houston. “Silver is a classic part of a bride’s trousseau in India, and when prices got high, women sold silver out of their trousseaus.”
According to a Washington Post article published that March, the D.C. police warned residents of a rash of home burglaries targeting silver.
Unfortunately for the Hunts, all this new supply had a predictable effect. Rather than close out their contracts, short sellers suddenly found it was easier to get their hands on new supplies of silver and deliver.
“The main factor that has caused corners to fail [throughout history] is that the manipulator has underestimated how much will be delivered to him if he succeeds [at] raising the price to artificial levels,” says Pirrong. “Eventually, the Hunts ran out of money to pay for all the silver that was thrown at them.”
In financial terms, the brothers had a large corpse on their hands—and no way to bury it.
This proved to be an especially big problem, because it wasn’t just the Hunt fortune that was on the line. Of the $6.6 billion worth of silver the Hunts held at the top of the market, the brothers had “only” spent a little over $1 billion of their own money. The rest was borrowed from over 20 banks and brokerage houses.
At the same time, COMEX decided to crack down. On January 7, 1980, the exchange’s board of governors announced that it would cap the size of silver futures exposure to 3 million ounces. Those in excess of the cap (say, by the tens of millions) were given until the following month to bring themselves into compliance. But that was too long for the Chicago Board of Trade exchange, which suspended the issue of any new silver futures on January 21. Silver futures traders would only be allowed to square up old contracts.
Predictably, silver prices began to slide. As the various banks and other firms that had backed the Hunt bullion binge began to recognize the tenuousness of their financial position, they issued margin calls, asking the brothers to put up more money as collateral for their debts. The Hunts, unable to sell silver lest they trigger a panic, borrowed even more. By early March, futures contracts had fallen to the mid-$30 range.
Matters finally came to a head on March 25, when one of the Hunts’ largest backers, the Bache Group, asked for $100 million more in collateral. The brothers were out of cash, and Bache was unwilling to accept silver in its place, as it had been doing throughout the month. With the Hunts in default, Bache did the only thing it could to start recouping its losses: it start to unload silver.
On March 27, “Silver Thursday,” the silver futures market dropped by a third to $10.80. Just two months earlier, these contracts had been trading at four times that amount.
The Aftermath
After the oil bust of the early 1980s and a series of lawsuits polished off the remainder of the Hunt brothers’ once historic fortune, the two declared bankruptcy in 1988. Bunker, who had been worth an estimated $16 billion in the 1960s, emerged with under $10 million to his name. That’s not exactly chump change, but it wasn’t enough to maintain his 500-plus stable of horses,.
The Hunts almost dragged their lenders into bankruptcy too—and with them, a sizable chunk of the U.S. financial system. Over twenty financial institutions had extended over a billion dollars in credit to the Hunt brothers. The default and resulting collapse of silver prices blew holes in balance sheets across Wall Street. A privately orchestrated bailout loan from a number of banks allowed the brothers to start paying off their debts and keep their creditors afloat, but the markets and regulators were rattled.
Silver Spot Prices Per Ounce (January, 1979 - June, 1980)
📷
Source: Trading Economics
In the words of then CFTC chief James Stone, the Hunts’ antics had threatened to punch a hole in the “financial fabric of the United States” like nothing had in decades. Writing about the entire episode a year later, Harper’s Magazine described Silver Thursday as “the first great panic since October 1929.”
The trouble was not over for the Hunts. In the following years, the brothers were dragged before Congressional hearings, got into a legal spat with their lenders, and were sued by a Peruvian mineral marketing company, which had suffered big losses in the crash. In 1988, a New York City jury found for the South American firm, levying a penalty of over $130 million against the Hunts and finding that they had deliberately conspired to corner the silver market.
Surprisingly, there is still some disagreement on that point.
Bunker Hunt attributed the whole affair to the political motives of COMEX insiders and regulators. Referring to himself later as “a favorite whipping boy” of an eastern financial establishment riddled with liberals and socialists, Bunker and his brother, Herbert, are still perceived as martyrs by some on the far-right.
“Political and financial insiders repeatedly changed the rules of the game,” wrote the New American. “There is little evidence to support the ‘corner the market’ narrative.”
Though the Hunt brothers clearly amassed a staggering amount of silver and silver derivatives at the end of the 1970s, it is impossible to prove definitively that market manipulation was in their hearts. Maybe, as the Hunts always claimed, they just really believed in the enduring value of silver.
Or maybe, as others have noted, the Hunt brothers had no idea what they were doing. Call it the stupidity defense.
“They’re terribly unsophisticated,” an anonymous associated was quoted as saying of the Hunts in a Chicago Tribune article from 1989. “They make all the mistakes most other people make,” said another.
p.s. credit to Ben Christopher
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Lost in the Sauce: March 22 - 28

Welcome to Lost in the Sauce, keeping you caught up on political and legal news that often gets buried in distractions and theater… or a global health crisis.
Figuring out how to divide the COVID-19 content from the “regular” news has been difficult because the pandemic is influencing all aspects of life. Some of the stories below involve the virus, but I chose to include them when it fits into one of the pre-established categories (like congress or immigration). The coronavirus-central post will be made again this Thursday-Friday; the sign up form now has an option to choose to receive an email when the coronavirus-focused roundup is posted.
House-keeping:
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Let’s dig in!

MAIN COURSE

Congress passes stimulus

Last week started out with a Republican-crafted stimulus bill that was twice-blocked by Senate Democrats, who objected to the lax conditions of aid to corporations, too little funding for hospitals, and a $500 billion “slush fund” for big companies to be doled out by Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin with no oversight.
Conservative-Democrat Joe Manchin (WV) even criticized the GOP bill:
“It fails our first responders, nurses, private physicians and all healthcare professionals. ... It fails our workers. It fails our small businesses… Instead, it is focused on providing billions of dollars to Wall Street and misses the mark on helping the West Virginians that have lost their jobs through no fault of their own.”
Through negotiations, Democrats shifted the bill in a more-worker friendly direction. The version that passed includes the following Democrat-added provisions: expanded unemployment benefits, $100 billion for hospitals, $150 billion for state and local governments, direct payments to Americans without a phase-in (ensuring low-income workers get the full amount), a ban on Trump and his children from receiving aid, and oversight on the “slush fund” (see next section for more info). Senate Democrats also managed to remove a provision that would have excluded nonprofits that receive Medicaid funding from the small-business grants.
Echoing sentiments expressed during debate on the previous coronavirus bill (the second, for those keeping track), Republican senators derided the $600 a week increase in unemployment payments as “incentivizing” workers to quit their jobs. Sens. Ben Sasse (Neb.), Rick Scott (Fla.), Tim Scott (S.C.) and Lindsey Graham (S.C.) delayed passage of the bill in order to force a vote on an amendment removing the extra unemployment funding. "This bill pays you more not to work than if you were working," Graham said. Fortunately for American workers, the amendment failed and the improved bill passed the Senate and the House.

The giveaways in the bill

While Senate Democrats were able to add worker-friendly provisions, the bill still required bipartisan support to pass the chamber and some corporate giveaways remained in the final version.
Politico:

Trump’s signing statement

While signing the latest coronavirus relief bill, the president also issued a signing statement undercutting the congressional oversight provision creating an inspector general to track how the administration distributes the $500 billion “slush fund” money.
The newly-created inspector general is legally required to audit loans and investments made through the fund and report to Congress his/her findings, including any refusal by the executive office to cooperate. In his signing statement, Trump wrote that his understanding of constitutional powers allows him to gag the special IG:
"I do not understand, and my Administration will not treat, this provision as permitting the [inspector general] to issue reports to the Congress without the presidential supervision required" by Article II of the Constitution.
The signing statement further suggests that Trump does not have to comply with a provision requiring that agencies consult with Congress before it spends or reallocates certain funds: "These provisions are impermissible forms of congressional aggrandizement with respect to the execution of the laws," the statement reads.
While some have said that Congress fell short in this instance, one Democratic Senate aide told Politico that Congress built in multiple layers of oversight, including “a review of other inspectors general and a congressional review committee charged with overseeing Treasury and the Federal Reserve's efforts to implement the law.”
Legal experts have pointed out that a signing statement is “without legal effect.” But that ignores the fact that oversight is not equal to enforcement. The problem, in my opinion, isn’t that Congress won’t be notified of any abuses of power by Trump. The problem is that congressional Republicans and the judiciary have largely failed to hold him accountable and enforce our laws even after learning of his abuses.

Concerns about the IG

Another potential weakness in the oversight structure is the inspector general position itself. The special inspector general for pandemic recovery, known by the acronym S.I.G.P.R., is nominated by the president and confirmed by the Republican-controlled Senate. As we’ve seen from Trump’s previous nominees, particularly judicial, many unqualified individuals have been confirmed. The Democrats will not have the power to stop the president and Mitch McConnell from jamming through a loyalist to fill the SIGPR role.
Former inspector general at the Justice Department Michael Bromwich: “The signing statement threatens to undermine the authority and independence of this new IG. The Senate should extract a commitment from the nominee that Congress will be promptly notified of any Presidential/Administration interference or obstruction.”
You may recall that Trump has already proven that he’s willing to interfere with the legally-mandated work of an inspector general. When the Ukraine whistleblower filed a complaint last year, the IG of the Intelligence Community, Michael Atkinson, investigated and determined the complaint to be “urgent” and “credible.” Atkinson wrote a report and gave it to Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire to hand over to Congress. However, the White House and DOJ interfered and instructed Maguire not to transmit the report to the Senate and House Intelligence Committees. Chairman Adam Schiff had to subpoena Maguire to turn over the report and testify before his committee.
Further, there are already five IG vacancies in agencies that have a critical role in responding to the pandemic. The Treasury itself has not had a permanent, Senate-confirmed IG for over eight months now, and Trump hasn’t nominated a replacement. The Treasury Dept. has taken a lead role in the coronavirus response, with Secretary Mnuchin handling most of the negotiating with Congress on Trump’s behalf. The fact that the lead agency doesn’t have IG oversight should be troublesome in itself; replicating the situation with a special IG doesn’t seem to be a promising solution.
UPDATE: The nation's inspectors general have appointed Glenn Fine, the Pentagon's acting IG, to lead the committee of IGs overseeing the coronavirus relief effort.
This is one of several oversight mechanisms built into the new law. They include:
A committee of IGs (now led by Fine), a new special IG (to be nominated by Trump), a congressional review panel (to be appointed by House/Senate leaders)

Direct payments

Included in the stimulus bill is a $1200 one-time direct payment for all Americans who made less than $75,000 in 2019 (less than $150,000 if couples filed jointly). More details can be found here. I have read that the Treasury will use 2018 information for those who have not filed yet this year, but I am not 100% sure that’ll happen.
Mnuchin has said that Americans can expect to receive the money within three weeks, but many experts expect that timetable to be pushed into late April. Additionally, that only applies to Americans who included direct deposit information on their 2019 tax returns. Those who did not include their bank’s information will have to be sent a physical check in the mail… which could take anywhere from two to four months.
Other options are being discussed, including partnering the Treasury Dept. with MasterCard and Visa to deliver prepaid debit cards. Venmo and Paypal are reportedly lobbying the government to be considered as a disbursement option.
Future payments?
House Speaker Pelosi is already planning another wave of direct payments to Americans, saying that the $1,200 is not enough to mitigate the economic effects of the pandemic: “I don’t think we’ve seen the end of direct payments.” Republicans, meanwhile, are taking a ‘wait and see’ approach, using the next couple of weeks to measure the impact of the $2 trillion bill passed last week.
House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy: “What concerns me is when I listen to Nancy Pelosi talk about a fourth package now, it’s because she did not get out of things that she really wanted...I’m not sure you need a fourth package...Let’s let this work ... We have now given the resources to make and solve this problem. We don’t need to be crafting another bill right now.”
For the fourth legislative package, Democrats have said they would like to see increased food stamp benefits; increased coverage for coronavirus testing, visits to the doctor and treatment; more money for state and local governments, including Washington, D.C.; expanded family and medical leave; pension fixes; and stronger workplace protections.
Trump’s signature
Normally, a civil servant signs federal checks, like the direct payments Americans are set to receive. According to a Wall Street Journal report, Trump has told people that he wants his signature to appear on the stimulus checks.

THE SIDES

War on the poor continues

Amid the coronavirus crisis, Trump has defended his continued support of a Republican-led lawsuit to dismantle the Affordable Care Act, which would result in 20 million Americans losing health insurance if successful. The Supreme Court agreed to hear arguments in the case this fall. Contrasting with his position that the ACA is illegal, Trump is considering reopening enrollment on HealthCare.gov, allowing millions of uninsured individuals to get coverage before potentially incurring charges and fees related to COVID-19.
Joe Biden called on Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, who is leading the charge against the ACA, and President Trump to drop the lawsuit:
“At a time of national emergency, which is laying bare the existing vulnerabilities in our public health infrastructure, it is unconscionable that you are continuing to pursue a lawsuit designed to strip millions of Americans of their health insurance and protections under the Affordable Care Act (ACA), including the ban on insurers denying coverage or raising premiums due to pre-existing conditions.”
The Trump administration is also pushing forward with its plan to kick 700,000 people off federal food stamp assistance, known as SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program). The USDA announced two weeks ago that the department will appeal Judge Beryl Howell’s recent decision that the USDA’s work mandate rule is “arbitrary and capricious."
Additionally: The Social Security Administration has no plans to slow down a rule change set for June that will limit disability benefits, the Department of Health and Human Services still intends to reduce automatic enrollment in health coverage, and the Department of Housing and Urban Development will continue the process to enact a rule that would make it harder for renters to sue landlords for racial discrimination.

Lawmakers’ stock transactions

The Justice Department and Securities and Exchange Commission are beginning to investigate stock transactions made ahead of the economic crisis caused by the coronavirus pandemic. CNN reports that the inquiry has already reached out to Senator Richard Burr for information. “Under insider trading laws, prosecutors would need to prove the lawmakers traded based on material non-public information they received in violation of a duty to keep it confidential,” a task that won’t be easy.
Sen. Burr is facing another consequence of his trades: Alan Jacobson, a shareholder in Wyndham Hotels and Resorts, sued Burr for allegedly using private information to instruct a mass liquidation of his assets. Among the shares he sold were an up to $150,000 stake in Wyndham, whose stock suffered a market-value cut of more than two-thirds since mid-February.

Environmental rollbacks

Using the pandemic as cover, the Trump administration has begun to more aggressively roll back regulations meant to protect the environment. These are examples of what Naomi Klein dubbed “the shock doctrine”: the phenomenon wherein polluters and their government allies push through unpopular policy changes under the smokescreen of a public emergency.
On Thursday, the EPA announced (non-paywalled) an expansive relaxation of environmental laws and fines, exempting companies from consequences for pollution. Under the new rules, there are basically no rules. Companies are asked to “act responsibly” but are not required to report when their facilities discharge pollution into the air or water. Just five days before abandoning any pollution oversight, the oil industry’s largest trade group implored the administration for assistance, stating that social distancing measures caused a steep drop in demand for gasoline.
  • Monday morning update: In an interview with Fox News this morning, Trump said he was going to call Putin after the interview to discuss the Saudi-Russia oil fight. A consequence of this "battle" has been plummeting prices in the U.S. making it difficult for domestic companies (like shale extraction) to turn a profit. It's striking that the day after Dr. Fauci told Americans we can expect 100,000 to 200,000 deaths from COVID-19 (if we keep social distancing measures in place), Trump's first action is to talk to Fox News and his second action is to intervene in an international tiff on behalf of the oil and gas industry.
Gina McCarthy, who led the E.P.A. under the Obama administration, called the rollback “an open license to pollute.” Cynthia Giles, who headed the EPA enforcement division during the Obama administration, said “it is so far beyond any reasonable response I am just stunned.”
The EPA is also moving forward with a widely-opposed rule to limit the types of scientific studies used when crafting new regulations or revising current ones. Hidden behind claims of increased transparency, the rule would require disclosure of all raw data used in scientific studies. This would disqualify many fields of research that rely on personal health information from individuals that must be kept confidential. For example, studies that show air pollution causes premature deaths or a certain pesticide is linked to birth defects would be rejected under the proposed rule change.
Officials and scientists are calling upon the EPA to extend the time for comment on the regulatory changes, arguing that the public is unable to express their opinion while dealing with the pandemic.
“These rollbacks need and deserve the input of our public health community, but right now, they are rightfully focused on responding to the coronavirus,” said Representative Frank Pallone of New Jersey, the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.
Other controversial decisions being made:
  • A former EPA official who worked on controversial policies returned as Administrator Andrew Wheeler’s chief of staff. Mandy Gunasekara helped write regulations to ease pollution controls for coal-fired power plants and vehicle emissions in her previous role as chief of the EPA’s Office of Air and Radiation. In a recent interview, Gunasekara, who played a role in the decision to exit the Paris Climate Accord, pushed back on the more dire predictions of climate change, saying, “I don't think it is catastrophic.”
  • NYT: The plastic bag industry, battered by a wave of bans nationwide, is using the coronavirus crisis to try to block laws prohibiting single-use plastic. “We simply don’t want millions of Americans bringing germ-filled reusable bags into retail establishments putting the public and workers at risk,” an industry campaign that goes by the name Bag the Ban warned on Tuesday. (Also see The Guardian)
  • Kentucky, South Dakota, and West Virginia passed laws putting new criminal penalties on protests against fossil fuel infrastructure in just the past two weeks.
  • The Hill: The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said Friday that it will extend the amount of time that winter gasoline can be sold this year as producers have been facing lower demand due to the coronavirus. It will allow companies to sell the winter-grade gasoline through May 20, whereas companies would have previously been required to stop selling it by May 1 to protect air quality. “In responding to an international health crisis, the last thing the EPA should do is take steps that will worsen air quality and undermine the public’s health,” biofuels expert David DeGennaro said.
  • NYT: At the Interior Department, employees at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have been under strict orders to complete the rule eliminating some protections for migratory birds within 30 days, according to two people with direct knowledge of the orders. The 45-day comment period on that rule ended on March 19.
  • WaPo: The Interior Department has received over 230 nominations for oil and gas leases covering more than 150,000 acres across southern Utah, a push that would bring drilling as close as a half-mile from some of the nation’s most famous protected sites, including Arches and Canyonlands National Parks… if all the fossil fuels buried in those sites was extracted and burned, it would translate into between 1 billion and 5.95 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide being released into the air. That upward measure is equal to half the annual carbon output of China

Court updates

Press freedom case
Southern District of New York District Judge Lorna Schofield ruled that a literary advocacy group’s lawsuit against Trump for allegedly violating the First Amendment can move forward. The group, PEN America, is pursuing claims that Trump “has used government power to retaliate against media coverage and reporters he dislikes.”
Schofield determined that PEN’s allegation that Trump made threats to chill free speech was valid, providing as an example the White House’s revocation of CNN correspondent Jim Acosta’s press press corps credentials:
”The threats are lent credence by the fact that Defendant has acted on them before, by revoking Mr. Acosta’s credentials and barring reporters from particular press conferences. The Press Secretary indeed e-mailed the entire press corps to inform them of new rules of conduct and to warn of further consequences, citing the incident involving Mr. Acosta… These facts plausibly allege that a motivation for defendant’s actions is controlling and punishing speech he dislikes.”
Twitter case
The president suffered another First Amendment defeat last week when the full 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals declined to review a previous ruling that prevents Trump from blocking users on the Twitter account he uses to communicate with the public. Judge Barrington D. Parker, a Nixon-appointee, wrote: “Excluding people from an otherwise public forum such as this by blocking those who express views critical of a public official is, we concluded, unconstitutional.”
Trump-appointees Michael Parker and Richard Sullivan authored a dissent, arguing the free speech “does not include a right to post on other people’s personal social media accounts, even if those other people happen to be public officials.” Park warned that the ruling will allow the social media pages of public officials to be “overrun with harassment, trolling, and hate speech, which officials will be powerless to filter.”
Florida’s felon voting
U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle ripped into Florida Governor Ron DeSantis’s administration for failing to come up with a process to determine which felons are genuinely unable to pay court-ordered fees and fines, which are otherwise required to be paid before having their voting rights restored.
“If the state is not going to fix it, I will,” Hinkle warned. He had given the state five months to come up with an administrative process for felons to prove they’re unable to pay financial obligations, but Florida officials did not do so. The case is set to be heard on April 28 (notwithstanding any coronavirus-related delays).

ICE, Jails, and COVID-19

ICE
One of the most overlooked populations with an increased risk of death from coronavirus are those in detention facilities, which keep people in close quarters with little sanitation or protective measures (including for staff).
Last week, U.S. District Judge Dolly Gee ordered the federal government to “make continuous efforts” to release migrant children from detention centers across the country. Numerous advocacy groups asked for the release after reports that four children being held in New York had tested positive for the virus:
“The threat of irreparable injury to their health and safety is palpable,” the plaintiffs’ lawyers said in their petition… both of the agencies operating migrant children detention facilities must by April 6 provide an accounting of their efforts to release those in custody… “Her order will undoubtedly speed up releases,” said Peter Schey, co-counsel for the plaintiffs in the court case.
On Tuesday, 13 immigrants held at ICE facilities in California filed a lawsuit demanding to be released because their health conditions make them particularly vulnerable to dying if infected by the coronavirus. An ACLU statement says the detainees are “confined in crowded and unsanitary conditions where social distancing is not possible.” The 13 individuals are all over the age of 50 and/or suffering from serious underlying medical issues like high blood pressure.
“From all the evidence we have seen, ICE is failing to fulfill its constitutional obligation to protect the health and safety of individuals in its custody. ICE should exercise its existing discretion to release people with serious medical conditions from detention for humanitarian reasons,” said William Freeman, senior counsel at the ACLU of Northern California.
Meanwhile, ICE is under fire for continuing to shuttle detainees across the country, with one even being forced to take nine different flights bouncing from Louisiana to Texas to New Jersey less than two weeks ago. That man is Dr. Sirous Asgari, a materials science and engineering professor from Iran, who was acquitted last year on federal charges of stealing trade secrets. The government lost its case against him, yet ICE has had him in indefinite detention since November.
Asgari, 59, told the Guardian that his Ice holding facility in Alexandria, Louisiana, had no basic cleaning practices in place and continued to bring in new detainees from across the country with no strategy to minimize the threat of Covid-19...Detainees have no hand sanitizer, and the facility is not regularly cleaning bathrooms or sleeping areas…Detainees lack access to masks… Detainees struggle to stay clean, and the facility has an awful stench.
Jails
State jails are making a better effort to release detained individuals, as both New York and New Jersey ordered a thousand people in each state be let out of jail. The order applied only to low-level offenders sentenced to less than a year in jail and those held on technical probation violations. In Los Angeles County, officials released over 1,700 people from its jails.
A judge in Alabama took similar steps last week, ordering roughly 500 people jailed for minor offenses to be released to lessen crowding in facilities. Unlike in New York and New Jersey, however, local officials reacted in an uproar, led in part by the state executive committee for the Alabama Republican Party and Assistant District Attorney C.J. Robinson. Using angry Facebook messages as the barometer of the community’s feelings, Robinson worked “frantically” to block inmates from being released.
  • Reuters: As of Saturday, at least 132 inmates and 104 staff at jails across New York City had tested positive for COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus… Since March 22, jails have reported 226 inmates and 131 staff with confirmed cases of COVID-19, according to a Reuters survey of cities and counties that run America’s 20 largest jails. The numbers are almost certainly an undercount given the fast spread of the virus.

Tribe opposed by Trump loses land

On Wednesday, The Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs announced the Mashpee Wampanoag Tribe’s reservation would be "disestablished" and its land trust status removed. Tribal Chairman Cedric Cromwell called the move "cruel" and "unnecessary,” particularly coming in the midst of a pandemic crisis. Rep. Bill Keating (D-Mass.), who last year introduced legislation to protect the tribe's reservation as trust land in Massachusetts, said the order “is one of the most cruel and nonsensical acts I have seen since coming to Congress.”
The administration’s decision is especially suspicious as just last year Trump attacked the tribe’s plan to build a casino on its land, tweeting that allowing the construction would be “unfair” and treat Native Americans unequally. As a former casino owner, Trump has spent decades attacking Native American casinos as unfair competition. At a 1993 congressional hearing Trump said that tribal owners “don’t look like Indians to me” and claimed: “I might have more Indian blood than a lot of the so-called Indians that are trying to open up the reservations” to gambling.
More than his past history, however, Trump has current interests at play in the Mashpee Wampanoag’s planned casino: it would have competed for business with nearby Rhode Island casinos owned by Twin River Worldwide Holdings, whose president, George Papanier, was a finance executive at the Trump Plaza casino hotel in Atlantic City.
In the Mashpee case, Twin River, the operator of the two Rhode Island casinos, has hired Matthew Schlapp, chairman of the American Conservative Union and a vocal Trump supporter, to lobby for it on the land issue. Schlapp’s wife, Mercedes, is director of strategic communications at the White House.
submitted by rusticgorilla to Keep_Track [link] [comments]

[let'S build] d100 convicts and their crimes

There is a mine which produces rather rare ore that can be used to craft magical weapons. Since the kingdom is at war, everybody who commits a crime, be it stealing an apple, treason, or anything in between, they are send to the mine, to work as slaves, for the greater good. Now, tell me. Who are the convicts? And what crime did they commit?

  1. Brawny Joe. Joe used to work as a bouncer for one tavern in the capital, and since he got into the mine, he quickly found his way to become a bouncer again, in the little "tavern" the convicts get their food at. He doesn't speak much, but his muscles speak clearly. The thing that got him sentenced was simply bashing one unruly customer's head to a pulp.
  2. Artemis d'Evry. Artemis used to be one of the people of the court and even if now he is nothing more then simple digger, he still keeps his attitude and posture from the times he left behind. He was sentenced for treason against the crown, and rushed here. He denies his accusations, and claims somebody just wanted him to vaccate his position.
  3. Hollydove Strifelaughter. This kleptomaniac halfling has been in and out of prison for years. This time she was caught stealing from the wrong person. She is a legitimately ordained cleric as part of an order, but has trouble with gambling debts. At nighttime she holds religious services that are a front for an underground gambling ring.
  4. Barlet the Brogue. a heavyset human with a still-cheery attitude and colorful tattoos. He has only been in the prison a few months but is already ingratiated with the existing gangs. Was imprisoned for fencing stolen weapons and public drunkenness.
  5. Scabs. a prisoner whose crime is long forgotten- wrapped in rags and medicinal wrappings older than the taskmasters. He was enslaved well before the war, and will likely be there long after.
  6. Marc d’Antua. A political prisoner of a far-off nation, kept by the Kingdom as a show of good relations. d’Antua was a young revolutionary, and is now an old one, and he is always the first suspected when attempts at escape are rumored- part of the deal with d’Antua’s homeland is that he cannot be killed, and he has been shuttled between three different prisons due to escape attempts.
  7. Marquis Lüttersavian. not a convict, rather a taskmaster employed by the mine. An amazing tactical leader in his time, he was appointed by the previous King to defend a valuable border March. Now arthritic and bent double with age, he was forced to retire, but wanted to serve the kingdom further. He treats his small group of charges like men under his command and is well liked by convicts and the higher ups both. Can pull strings if befriended.
  8. Ankov Helsson. A reclusive wizard who knows more of the secret passageways of the mine than any other person. If the PCs investigate his file, it is revealed that he used to be in charge of the welfare of the convicts in this mine, and turned to Necromancy in order to hide the excessive amount of deaths caused by his negligence. Some of the prisoners want him dead.
  9. Holden Greystone. Holden is a younger fellow who was an apprentice to a famous blacksmith in a local town, one night the blacksmith was found dead in his house and when Holden arrived crownsguard came in after him and accused him of murder, or that's at least what Holden claims his eyes are shifty and is very physically imposing.
  10. Dalton Errington. wrong place wrong time, he worked on a very prosperous farmland as a animal handler, and one day he caught the oldest son having an affair with one of the other female workers, he didn't tell the boss and chose it ignore it and head home after his shift. In the morning however he was arrested by the crown guard for breaking into the stables and stealing the prized horses.
  11. Joe. really no one knows how he wound up in the prison, Joe is a crazy old half-elven man who rambles all day and night about random and mostly bizarre stories, but he does make the tedious work less, well tedious, when you get adjusted to his ramblings.
  12. Sara Strongjaw. one of the few female prisoners there, she is a large half-orc and is a powerhouse in the deeper sections of the mine. Everyone knows why she got arrested, a large strong female half-orc working on a dock in a port town with fragile egos is bound to go wrong.
  13. Arvold the Fishmonger. Smuggler and tax evasion. Went out to sea to ‘fish’ would meet his partner and smuggle in illegal goods with the days catch.
  14. Doug. A regular human man in a business suit. Used to work a desk job. He loitered outside a tavern for too long.
  15. Jamison Swarz. An older gentleman that was the head of the family, owning a vineyard and such. When the higher taxes due to the war came about, the family fell on tough times and he attempted to evade taxes. He got caught by his son who wanted to get his inheritance and take his place. Little the son knew, the military would take the land and turn it into a camp/training ground.
  16. Richard Haymond. Also known as Richie Hay he was the proud owner of a rich looking farm, until a band of robbers looted the place, burned his farm and killed his wife and his only daughter. Richie, tracked down the bandits only to find they were hired by a local lord who wanted his land. Richie out of vengeance tried to murder the Lord unsuccessfully. The Lord then sentenced Richie to the mines since it would look to suspicious to have him executed the same time he took his lands. And so Richie traded his farm and freedom for his life.
  17. Criminal Bill: A massive mountain of muscle of a man, they say Criminal Bill was only sent into the mine after he was failed to be executed. First, the executioners axe broke on the back of his neck. He hung for hours on end when he was sent to the gallows, even falling asleep for a time. They even attempted to pull him apart via horses, but the only things that died that day were the horses of exhaustion. There are hundreds, no, THOUSANDS of stories behind what he did to deserve such treatment, but they say that the only ones that truly know what Criminal Bill did could never say what it was, preferring to not imagine the horrors he committed. In reality, Criminal Bill is a poorly named individual who was arrested for lollygagging. He just gives off a natural aura of intimidation and killing intent, combined with his large build, variety of scars (including a missing eye) and shy and quiet nature allowed a blizzard of stories to run rampant, creating the dangerous myth that surrounds him.
  18. Miranda. Lovely elven lass with a sweet disposition. Arrested for the murder and assassination of over 120 city, shire, and kingdom officials. Popular opinion holds her either innocent (she’s just a wee lass!) or justified (politicians deserved it). Expected to be released thanks to the machinations of her very high priced attorney.
  19. Elizar the Pious. A self declared saint, he was involved in the Pelorian church from a young age, and while he failed out of the Pelorian Cleric training, he found work in the temple as a groundskeeper. However, he began to act as though he were a priest, then a high priest, then eventually the mouth of Pelor himself, claiming to hear Pelor's voice, his street sermons becoming more and more ridiculous until he was arrested for attacking a rich merchant's wife for carrying a parasol and shunning the holy light of Pelor. He views his prison time as missionary work, and proselytizes when he isn't working.
  20. Artem Quay. A two-bit thief who got nicked stealing apples. He says it was just because he needed the meal and couldn't find work. He was planning to share the apples with a beggar family he'd befriended even! Oh, he did murder a small family and lived in their house for a couple weeks before being discovered. He also ate part of the mother, but that's not really the important bit is it?
  21. Kurtis Papier. A middle aged human man. He is balding, missing his two front teeth, and wears a broken pair of wooden glasses with very thick lenses. Kurtis was convicted of fraud when he claimed he was the lost son Henry Papier and inherited the Twin Heart Tavern. He ran the tavern very successfully for 15 years, until Henry's real son returned to town to seek his estranged father's financial help. Kurtis still insists he is Henry's real son.
  22. Salazaar Sssssilvertongue. A formerly smooth talking gnome that now speaks with a pronounced lisp. He attempted to con a baron into investing into one of his "enterprises" - and got a prison sentence and a piece of his tongue cut off.
  23. Misbah Magahni. a dark skinned half ogre that was taken into custody for pillaging several farmsteads on the edge of the nation. Is not very smart but incredibly strong. He was so strong and strange to the point that the bodies were often found put together at a dinner table, messily dressed up as in a little girls dollhouse or at an imaginary tea party. He does not realize his strength and once broke a convicts arm by giving them a high five.
  24. Snab Bigtooth. A goblin with giant tooth/tusk sticking out the right side of his mouth. Attaches himself to whichever big boss person seems the strongest. He's got a knack for eavesdropping with his big ears and knows more languages than he says he understands.
  25. Maxine Mayards. A young, fiery half-elf woman. She was born in the unsettled frontier of the Southern provinces. The kingdom used to shuttle criminals South before the mines were opened. As prisoners started being sent to the mines, the frontier cities struggled. Maxine resented how the kingdom seemingly abandoned their citizens in the name of greed. She soon found herself at the center of all the circles of discontent, and soon found herself at the head of a rebellion. The rebellion is mostly crushed, and Maxine was captured soon after. She quietly longs for a chance to turn the tides. A mission regarding a prison revolt is possible with enough time, with the PC’s on either side of the conflict.
  26. Artyom . A human that only speaks Dwarvish. Accused of 6 counts of murder that he swears he didn't commit, but knows who did. If only someone in town spoke Dwarvish...
  27. Tor Aldrebrand. An accomplished wizard who was imprisoned for freeing the Archmages enslaved Djinn, as a token of the Djinns appreciation Tor is now immortal and is just waiting for the prison to rot around him.
  28. Dribby. A middle aged man, who looks and acts like your typical village idiot. Spits when he talks and accidentally spit on the king.
  29. Berwick the Shorn. A dwarf who's lost all his hair due to a childhood illness. Not physically strong, he is a keen geologist and able to locate rich seams of ore. Mostly keeps to himself, but flies into a berserk rage if mistaken for a halfling, which is what got him thrown in jail.
  30. Crovik Argham. A massive half-orc, one-eyed and possessing only nine fingers. His face bears the scars of some horrific battle in which he barely escaped with his life. Word around the mine is that he was a member of an elite military squad, sent on a suicide mission with bad intelligence. Crovik was the only member of his squad to survive, and after he was healed by the camp's cleric, the commander announced that Crovik would go before a military tribunal to investigate why he and he alone came back from this mission. Crovik snapped the Commander's neck and then submitted to arrest without incident. His only words at the tribunal hearing were, "If I'm going to be sent to the mines, let it be for something that I actually did."
  31. Aizen Nailo. A half elf/half human or so he claims. It’s the only way to explain how he has lived so long to write as much as he has. He spends all his time scribbling away with whatever he can wherever he can jotting down stories that he swears on his life are real. He claims he heard them from a friend of a friend or even that he was there sometimes. Some of the stories might be familiar to the players but with no tangible explanation as to how he’d know certain details. He was jailed because a noble read one of his stories and found one eerily close to his own corrupt dealings. He was rapidly framed and all copies of that story destroyed. Then again, that’s the story he wrote.
  32. Rodwell "Chicken Thief" Ebonhaum. A middle-aged man often caught mumbling to himself. In the last ten years, Ebonhaum has faced countless minor penalties for relocalizing poultry. The city guards, exasperated with his constant chicken-stealing shenanigans, have recently thrown him in jail for a few days. The guards know all too well that their detainee will reoffend as soon as he is out of jail and in proximity of feathered prey. Unbeknownst to all, Rodwell Ebonhaum has a minor background of studying the arcane arts and has been working on a new golem prototype for years. He is amazingly close to a major breakthrough and should complete his creation within 24 hours after getting out of jail. This Chicken Golem may yet prove to be an immense threat to the city (or not).
  33. Nahay Strife. A short human woman with a stripe of baldness running down the center of her head. She curses profusely and is in and out of jail for starting fights because she keeps screaming slurs at half-orcs, dwarves, and tieflings.
  34. Clive Coldhands Cilve was once an innocent farmer, who was framed for killing his family. In truth the Crown Prince and his gang of thugs and hanger-ons were responsible, but since he's the Prince and Clive is a nobody, Clive was the one to go to jail, where he was killed when the mine tunnel he was working in collapsed, only to return as a reverent(hence his name "Coldhands"). He's planning to break out using his new powers, and pay the Prince a visit (hint: it's not gonna end well for the Prince).
  35. The Red Jester A Warlock who used her connections to Hell to act as a middle-woman for infernal pacts and deals. When the current King took power, he implemented a popular "tough-on-Hell" policy that saw the Red Jester imprisoned for operating without a legal license. Claims her patron will get her out soon (her patron has forsaken her- Hell's fickle like that).
  36. Bom Bom is a flesh golem, who was formerly a servant for a mad necromancer, and was imprisoned here, after the necromancer was killed by the King's forces, simply for existing. Bom is a kind soul who is actually quite terrified of his current situation, and will befriend any PC who is wrongly imprisoned. Bom also is very religious and prays daily to the local God of Justice to get him and his friends out of this place.
  37. Scuttle is one of the youngest prisoners, at only nine years old, but unsettlingly one of the most quiet and serious. His mother, himself, and his sister were all sent here for theft and for refusing to vacate their small ramshackle home when a noble acquired it. Only Scuttle remains of the trio, the other two having died during a cave in at the women’s section. He’s tight lipped and serious and clearly learning the wrong lessons in life as he carries a small shiv and is often jumpy, violent, and unsociable. He often is sent to work with the halflings in the small parts of the cave adult humans cannot fit in, and can speak their language a bit now. Nicknamed after his incredible climbing and squeezing abilities, and refuses to tell people his real name or maybe had just forgotten it in the three years he’s been here.
  38. Mark. Former town blacksmith that was held in high regard for his fine craftsmanship. He cursed certain weapons he had forged, especially ones given to nobles, to animate and kill their owners while they slept.
  39. Tord Faurus. A half-orc arrested and charged for mayhem and mischief. Some children from the local town saw him vandalizing the local corn fields, or so they thought. Really, he's just a very enthusiastic farmer that's good with a scythe, but sadly he's illiterate and doesn't speak common, so has no means of defending himself. When the guards came to question him, he became alarmed and attacked, and eventually found himself behind bars.
  40. Thelonius Baker. Fate treated this human with a harsh hand, words on the street are that he used to be that villager who everybody loved, the best cook around, with a profound love for everyone, a real philantropist who did not want anything in return. That was until "something divine" happened, as he used to say, before he cut his tongue, started to cook with poison, and all he gave away, he needed back. Nobody could talk to him anymore, but everyone was concerned. Some time after, people who looked like medics came for him, and the whole village believed that lie "we will make him better, just the way he was before" Nowadays he can barely lift a pickaxe, since he has a secret, that sweet little newborn he found needs to eat, and there's only enough food for one. Actually, some think there is no baby, just the rambling of a man with sanity long gone.
  41. Karok unbra. A reedy human from a nomadic people in the northern frontier. arrested for rabblerousing after seeing a vision, and attempting to unify the northern tribes. will occasionally mutter half-formed prophecy as he chips away at the rocks.
  42. Eddy "Sneazer" Wheezer. A kobold who's rather tall for his race, and only knows one spell. Eddy scammed millions in gold coins from unsuspecting villagers by casting enlarge on himself and pretending to be a young dragon. He's allergic to the mildew in the prison yard and accidentally casts enlarge on himself every time he sneezes. Wheezer is the only convict not required to wear pants because they keep ripping.
  43. Hilldove Alderberry. Young halfling woman in prison for attacking a nobleman who tried to force himself onto her. Was an entertainer before her arrest, and often gives performances to cheer up the prison crowd. She has been in prison for a year, and is in one of its gangs for protection. She has an extensive family outside of prison that she tries to sneak letters to.
  44. Saw Wobble. A kenku arcane trickster who learned all his spells by mimicking a human wizard in his youth. He lies low in the mines, blending in with the shadows and rarely making himself known. However, he often knicks food from other prisoners and plays harmless pranks on guards. He’s been there for three months and hasn’t gotten caught yet. He’s in prison for stealing food from a high end tavern.
  45. Turs Urx. 30 year old changeling man, arrested for impersonating a deceased, widowed landowner and living in his home for months. Though Turs has been in the mines for about 6 months, he changes his appearance so often that none but his cell mate know who he is. He gets out of being attacked by taking on the appearance of well respected members of the prison. The guards have forbidden him to change his appearance and he has been caught and punished brutally four separate times for this.
  46. Anathu Zoksi. True neutral yuan ti pureblood assassin. Born into one of the lower ranks of yuan ti society due to his less snakelike appearance, Anathu quickly aligned himself with whatever forces would help him live a comfortable life. He worked as an assassin for a local mafia, and was caught and arrested while staking our a local merchant he was meant to kill. When caught, he played it off as if his intent was simply to steal from the merchant. Though his appearance is less snake like than other yuan ti purebloods, it is harsh enough to be disconcerting to fellow prisoners and mark him as someone not to be messed with. He has only been there for one month and will align himself with whatever gang seems the most helpful.
  47. Aldrik Bloodhorn. A hearty 50 year old dwarf, who was a miner before his arrest as well. He was arrested for trying to unionize the dwarves in his mine. He has a reputation for giving inspiring speeches and is prone to fighting with guards. He’s only been in the prison for four months but is already in the process of trying to dig an escape tunnel with his cell mate, Hinbut Smallfeet.
  48. Hinbut Smallfeet. A 160 year old forest gnome druid. Due to a mysterious illness, he has a sickly appearance is perpetually exhausted. He is often punished for fainting in the middle of mining. Though he is very physically weak, he has many allies in the prison who protect him. He has been using the minor illusion cantrip to try to cover up the escape tunnel that his cell mate, Aldrik Bloodhorn, has been trying to dig. He makes up a different unlikely story every time he’s asked, but the real reason he was arrested was for arson. A wealthy human developer cut down much of of the forest Hinbut grew up into in order to build homes, and Hinbut was caught burning those homes down.
  49. Samuel Grandfest. 25 year old human charlatan, arrested for using counterfeit gold coins. He has been in the prison for a year and a half and is deep in the business of smuggling in and selling black market goods to the other prisoners.
  50. Tyrcoril Ianhorn. A young looking half elf and oath of the ancients paladin. He has chin length scruffy blonde hair and hazel eyes. He is dedicated to Pelor, and when the King ordered his order of Paladins work for the army, he refused due to his belief that Pelor would not support this war. He was promptly arrested for treason. Stubborn and strong willed, he often has to be restrained for trying to smite guards and other prisoners.
  51. The Minelings. The five children in total have been trapped in the mine for presumably their entire lives, mining for precious metals and gemstones. One has lost use of his legs, and collectively they hold a few diamonds. If they are freed, they ask that you rescue their friend being held elsewhere, who is unfortunately long dead.
  52. Barry the mushroom killer. Lures travellers into his camp for poisoned mushroom stew. Escaped from stonegate tower prison
  53. Rigosh Nishrober. A mountain dwarf barmaid, a little too carefree for her own good. Allowed herself to get carried away during a feast instead of seeing to her serving and cleaning duties. Got drunk and passed out, to wake and find the king's pet cat dead on the floor, fur soaked in alcohol. It had licked itself in an attempt to get clean, died of alcohol poisoning, and Rigosh was held responsible.
  54. The Wild King. An elderly human, ex-bandit chief and powerful druid who maintains connections even from within the prison. His cell is private and relatively luxurious, he doesn't have to work, 1d10 other prisoners work for him (roll on the table again), whether willingly or not, and 1d4 guards are agents of his in disguise.
  55. Skippy Jones. An incredibly nimble and short human thief who likes to sell all his stolen goods as so-called "legendary items". The con that got him here was selling an alcohol solution of salt and tobasco as a love potion that can even seduce dragons. He hints that when the customer appeared with guards, he seemed to be bit..charred.
  56. Hank Horsehugger. He is a thin old man who worked in the king's stables. He liked the horses. A LOT. And he cared for them, if you know what I mean. He was caught 'caring' for the horses and in response stole one of the horses to escape. He was sentenced for being pretty gross and for stealing a horse.
  57. Lysanthir Wynfaren. An arrogant and ostentatious 200 year old eladrin. He was exiled from the feywild for killing a rival. He was arrested almost immediately upon entering the mortal plane for challenging a member of the royalty to a duel. He is most often in his summer personality state, and quick to violence. He resents the mine work, not because of how physically taxing it is, but because he thinks of himself as too good for it. He’s been in the mines for 2 years, and still talks about breaking out as something he’s gonna do any day now.
  58. Ayre Kelxidor. A 400 year old wood elf hermit who had spent the past 2 and a half centuries living in a “self sufficient” cabin alone. He’s antisocial and gruff, preferring animals to people. He has coppery skin and grey hair. He was arrested for roughly 250 years of tax evasion.
  59. Marcus. Marcus is a human, about 30 years of age. He got sentenced for riding a wild boar through the streets of his home city. He was drunk, the boar was raging, cause it couldn't get rid of that stupid human clinging to its back and kicking it to run faster..and the whole wild ride ended when Marcus crashed into a stall with cabbages, and the boar finally escaped his grip, trampled the shopkeeper, and ran away.

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submitted by Anysnackwilldo to d100 [link] [comments]

Working at a game room. Need to know if I should quit.

Hi all. I'm looking for a little legal advice on working at a "game room" in Texas. Which means that I work at a hole in the wall, grey area casino. It's obviously best if I don't say where, so I'm not going to. What I'm trying to find out, is what charges can be filed against me for being an employee there. Is it just a Class C Misdemeanor, or is it more serious? All slot machines.
People come in, and they put their money in a machine. They play and if they win or want to cash out, they get a "ticket" made out to them. Instead of having the machine print one like they would at a big, legit place like Winstar. They then take this ticket up to the counter, where someone pays them out.
The slot machines are clearly just old models that some real casino somewhere, didn't want anymore. There's even video evidence because everything is recorded. There's a big camera system and everything is being recorded in the back. At least I think it is, unless the hard drive is disconnected inside that recording box they have back there. So all the employees will be on camera paying people out.
How does this place even exist? According to the other employees, some of them have been told by the owner that the county essentially turns a blind eye to it. There's supposedly 5 other ones that he (the owner) knows of, just in this county. I've seen one other one for myself. It's nearby. The reason the law turns a blind eye to it, is supposedly because they have an easier time "cleaning up the streets" as it were. Supposedly, the fuzz will go check these places and very often find the dregs they're looking for. More hearsay is: When the next county over had a problem with these game rooms popping up like weeds, they learned of this little benefit. This ease of finding people they needed to arrest, people that the police are looking for. They're known to frequent these kinds of places. Anyway, I've yet to see anything like that happen. I have my doubts, but that's what the fellow employees say that the owner told them.
I find it much more likely, that this "grey area" the owner finds himself in, exists because he "supports the community" if you know what I mean. He greases a few palms or some such. This is all pure speculation on my part, but I do know that gambling is illegal in Texas. So something odd is going on. Word of mouth would have that place already shut down, if the right people wanted it shut down. Obviously they don't. Or they don't want it all that much. But then, maybe one day those people change their minds.
And if I may, please, don't clog the thread with replies saying "Just quit" or "Why risk it" and all of that stuff. All I'm looking to learn here, is the real penalty for working there. Then I'll make my decision on whether or not to quit, based on that. Does anyone know what the actual law is? Keep in mind I'm not gambling myself.
submitted by rampitup55 to legaladvice [link] [comments]

Facebook Transcript about abortion. I'm not proud of my state or the religion I grew up in.

So I had this argument with someone I've known all my life. She deleted it before I could get a screenshot, but I copied it and sent it to my friend that I talk to about stuff like this. So this isn't the best format and I apologize, but I wanted feedback on how I did. I felt like kind of a bitch, but if she can speak her mind why can't I speak mine? It's the first time I've spoken out on facebook about anything political.
Her
Yesterday at 4:06pm · Rid America of Planned Parenthood! — via LifeNews.com Sarah Palin: Women Don’t Need Abortion, Obama or Planned Parenthood lifenews.com Like·Comment·Share·Unfollow 3 people like this.
Me Well I understand you're against abortion and why, but planned parenthood offers so much more than just abortion. They offer birth control to women for cheap or free, cancer and STD/STI screenings and other health related things. They offer this at a reduced rate or free for anyone with low income. These are very important services some might not get otherwise, and abortion is only three percent of their services. To me, it's a huge disservice to try to take away vital health services to people who need it because three percent of that is abortion. Like · Edit · Yesterday at 4:43pm
Her Tara....Planned Parenthood's latest annual report shows it performed a record number of abortions in the fiscal year 2011-2012 and received a record amount of taxpayer funding. According to a report, Planned Parenthood performed 333,964 abortions during the 12-month period. That compares 332,278 abortions in 2009 and 329,445 abortions in 2010 -- making a three-year toll of close to one-million abortions. Texas I believe has cut them off because of this. That is 1 million babies killed because of the so called word "Choice". Don't let Satan work through organizations under the umbrella of helping women with other health issues. I don't buy into their "helping women" service announcement. Edited · Like · Yesterday at 11:33pm
Her http://ww2.onenewsnow.com/pro-life/2013/01/08/planned-parenthood-record-year-for-abortions-taxpayer-funding Planned Parenthood: Record year for abortions, taxpayer funding ww2.onenewsnow.com Like · Yesterday at 11:35pm
Me I'm curious as to the percentage this is compared to other places that do abortions. There's several aspects to this. First off, making abortion illegal will not stop abortion, it will only make dangerous back alley abortions more common. Before Roe v Wade there were entire wings of hospitals for women who survived these abortions. There will always be tragic things that happen, such as the Indian woman who was in Ireland and was denied an abortion, since it's illegal there, even though that fetus was dead and it was only killing her. She died because its not Catholic to perform abortions. Things like this can and will happen if abortion is made completely illegal. Unfortunately, there will always be dire situations. It is worth saying most abortions happen in the first trimester, before the fetus is much more than a bundle of cells. The pictures of abortions of fetuses that look like babies are not the norm. The later term abortions are usually because it endangers the mother or fetus, or illegal. The solution is not to outlaw it, it's to educate teenagers and young men and women about safe sex practices and give them easier access to birth control-which Planned Parenthood does.(I don't know if it means anything to you, but when someone goes in to Planned Parenthood for an abortion, they are given birth control and educated to keep it from happening again.) This also includes the morning after pill, which keeps sperm from fertilizing an egg. It is in no way an abortion pill like some claim. The solution is education and providing resources to prevent pregnancy before it starts, not controlling the lives of thousands or millions of women (and men) who you will never meet, whose lives don't affect you and whose story you don't know. That is not small government. That is large government if I've ever heard it. Speaking of government, abortion is completely legal under certain parameters. So then, why should the government take funding from an organization for doing something totally legal even though it doesn't agree with some people's morals? I've never heard of anyone trying to shut down casinos for gambling or stores for selling alcohol, though it's against some people's morals and can have negative consequences. Well, they tried to outlaw alcohol and that turned out terribly. Also, as for the religious aspect, Jesus never said to make laws according to the bible. He said to live your life as you should, teach your family well and spread the word. Lobbying laws does none of this. Also, the bible never says abortion is a sin, so this is an idea either concluded from the bible without a direct verse or made up and attached to religion. So I'm not sure how satan can work through organizations through something like abortions when it's not exactly one of the Ten Commandments So it's about education, not eradicating something that is unfortunately occasionally necessary. It's about prevention, not punishment. It's also about valuing someone's body, instead of treating it simply as a vessel for making babies, no matter the consequence. Like · Edit · 2 hours ago
Her Adriana...it is sad to me that you approve the killing of little babies. They don't have the ability to have a say if they want to live or not. Being brought up in a Godly home and knowing that God does not approve of killing I am astonished that because you live in one of the most liberal states in America...you would still not understand that regardless of how early or late of an abortion, that the fact is that that child has it's own DNA and is a living human being. Regardless of other countries and what their rules...that woman could have gone to another country and found someone to help her. I am saddened by your approval of killing of young children. I am so glad when your mother found out she was pregnant with you she did not kill you. She knew God placed you on this earth for a reason. Each child has a reason regardless what home they come into. That mother has the ability to place that child with another family. Edited · Like · 2 hours ago
Me It's not that I approve, that's not the point. It's that I don't believe it's any more moral to dictate the personal lives of complete strangers any more than you find any kind of abortion immoral. The US is not a theocracy and cannot constitutionally establish laws for religious reasons, which is where most of your arguments are coming from. If life starts at conception, then that fetus has a soul and goes to heaven, without living in misery of poverty, a mother that doesn't want it, or the adoption system. Sadly, not all of those babies get adopted. Again, not saying abortion is in any way good or desirable, but that the fetus will be in heaven. And what you said about that woman, I don't know why she went to Ireland, but it sounds like you're saying its okay to have abortion in other countries but not the US? But wouldn't it be morally the same everywhere? Again, it's not about whether I would ever get an abortion or not, it's about not controlling people and working to minimize and do away with the need or demand for it. Fewer laws, more help. Like · Edit · 2 hours ago
Her Adriana...we give criminals the right to live by trial don't we? Why do innocent children get less respect than a criminal? I don't dictate what a person does with their own lives as long as it does not involve killing. Abortion is killing regardless if that unborn child goes to heaven. PP has placed more of their funds into abortion than any other area of their business. They are nothing but a legalized killing clinic. If you research a little more into the business you will find that they are more into the money than the true help of women. Why should my tax money go for killing? Should not I have the say in where my tax dollars are spent? I pay a hell of a lot of money in taxes so I know I should. Talk to women who have had abortions and research before you make a decision based on what you feel is not your concern. Did not God send us into the world to preach his word? Weren't we to turn away from sin and try to rebuke it? Killing the innocent is a sin we should rebuke it. Regardless if that person is a believer or not, shouldn't we stand up for God's word regardless if that person is a believer or not? I won't allow my money to go to killing. Edited · Like · 1 hour ago
Me Oh and I missed your last point. If my mom had aborted me, I would not know any different, nor would you. Or my mom for that matter. It sounds cold but it's hard to miss what wasn't there. Also, the adoption system is, unfortunately in bad shape. Many kids never get adopted. It would be wonderful if they could. But many families either don't want to adopt or or can't afford it. It's also a lot to demand of a woman to carry a baby to term to give it up if it's not her choice. And there could still be terrible health consequences. If women choose to do this, that's great. But it's their choice. Like · Edit · 1 hour ago
Her More women are looking for children than you think Adriana...it is our government making it hard. I know. I am one of those women. Like · 1 hour ago
Me Yes, we give suspected criminals trials to determine if they're guilty or not, and we do have the death penalty and Texas kills more people by death penalty than any other state, I want to say combined but I could be wrong on that. So yes, Texas, among other states, kills criminals if they commit certain crimes. They are given certain rights of American citizens, and fetuses are not. The life starts at conception is a religious idea, not secular. Fetuses are not given rights until they can live outside their mothers body without much assistance. They can't survive on their own and therefore aren't granted personhood. Once they get to a point they can survive outside the womb then abortion is extremely restricted (detrimental to mother or baby) or illegal. What's your source on the PP? I'm honestly curious. I find it hard to believe an organization that gets most of their funds from the government and cute costs for poor people are in it for the money, simply because there can't be much money to be in for. However, if the articles/stats are unbiased and not propaganda or opinionated I'd be open to reconsidering my opinion. I have a much bigger problem with corrupt politicians making more than I'll see in years pissing off and not getting anything done because of party lines. It's both our rights to vote accordingly, but whether we are voting what's best for people, the country or anything else is a different matter. I've ready addresses this. Disapprove of, rebuke? Yes. Force it on other people by laws? No. That's the difference. Jesus never said to vote like he would. He said to spread the word. Let the seeds fall where they may, and let God take care of the rest. Not turn America into a Christian theocracy. Like · Edit · 1 hour ago
Me I totally understand why you're for the adoption route, don't get me wrong. I also understand plenty of people are looking. What I'm saying is the kids aren't being adopted and that's the problem. If most did, that'd be wonderful. Personally, if I was ever in that situation and went with adoption I'd find the family to ensure the baby got adopted to a good home. I'm saying that the system can't take all those extra kids, not that adoption is bad. Like · Edit · 1 hour ago
Her Well... let's just agree to disagree because I am one to fight for the unborn and I do hope you find that innocent lives are just as important than those who chose to take those lives. Many who have had abortions say they wish they had not done it. I don't appose the death penalty to the guilty but I do to the innocent. So I will just end this conversation because it is just becoming an heated discussion of two that don't agree.
My last comment that I didn't get copied was that we can disagree, it's a complex issue with different sides. So, how did I do? Again, it got deleted before I could get a screenshot so this was the best I could do. Sorry if it's difficult to read.
submitted by dixiegirl13 to atheism [link] [comments]

what is the penalty for illegal gambling in texas video

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Vacation Nightmare: Sun, Sand, Prostitutes? ABC World ...

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